Using multiple bands?

[Martin Brown]

To work out estimated tension using more than one band per side is it as simple as adding the two?

If im using a small and medium band on a squat does anyone know how much roughly it will be extra to the weight?

Ta
Martin

[altug]

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=60452&tid=55

http://www.elitefts.com/articles/article-faq/default.asp

[Hellspawn]

i dont think there is a straight answer anyone else can answer as the extra resistance would be determined by the range of movement the band is stretched to , the only way i can think of is by actualy setting it up to the max hight it would be used at and weighing it

[Martin Brown]

Yeah i kind of guessed that'd be the case Hellspawn, cos there are so many differing factors.

The articles have given me a rough idea of what i need to know thanks altug

[curt]

obviously if 1 is 20kg at the top aprox, and 1 is 50kg then its 70kg total at top.

[kyle]

small(pink)+med(green)=50kg+70kg so you have 120kg of band tension at the top,this i think is measured with a 5.10 person in mind. and is obv a set of 2x each band.

[gerthebear]

i thin if you are relatively new (me included after 2 years) the bands shouldnt be in the equation. the most i use is a mini-band and then a heavier band for squatting/ reverse band stuff.never more than 1 each side.

i suggest using chains if you want the added effect, chains are less demand on the muscle

[James Copping]

To work out estimated tension using more than one band per side is it as simple as adding the two?

If im using a small and medium band on a squat does anyone know how much roughly it will be extra to the weight?

Ta
Martin

The bands are independant of eachother so yes, you can just add the tensions up.

[altug]

Bands are hot nowadays and i'll start to use them for reverse bands soon.
But we have to know that Pre-Band era(or you can read this as 'Let's-create-our-niche-market-and-earn-some-money' era) Simmons' and Westside poster boy Vogelpohl's opinion about band usage was very different than what it is today.
They used to say that you have to be at least Master level to start using them. (Mr. Simmons also once said that all you need is a squat rack and a spotter to get f*ckin' strong and elite total)
I just used/tried them once so i am not the one to talk about them but i still think one has to consider the commercial aspect of things when someone tries to sell you an idea.

'Experts say that glycogen and caffein increases performance when used together. Who sponsored that study? Gatorade or Coca Cola, of course!'

[altug]

One more hypothesis to add...
When using multiple bands tension at the top may increase arithmetically but i am sure that tension/irritation/damage on your joints will increase logarithmically.

[dr_hazbun]

I don't think I agree with one having to be an experienced or masters level lifter in order to use or get the most out of bands. Yes, a certain base strength needs to be achieved first but certainly not masters level powerlifting!

I think if you can bench 1.5x BW, squat 2x BW, deadlift over 2x BW (all unequipped) then you will get the benefits of band use and that's certainly not masters/elite level strength!

The worst thing is when you start seeing people who can't bench 60 start throwing bands and chains on without building foundation strength.

[Martin Brown]

I don't think I agree with one having to be an experienced or masters level lifter in order to use or get the most out of bands. Yes, a certain base strength needs to be achieved first but certainly not masters level powerlifting!

I think if you can bench 1.5x BW, squat 2x BW, deadlift over 2x BW (all unequipped) then you will get the benefits of band use and that's certainly not masters/elite level strength!

The worst thing is when you start seeing people who can't bench 60 start throwing bands and chains on without building foundation strength.

Agreed, I have only started training for PL last June, and used bands upto mediums for squat + DL and small for bench. I wasnt weak to start with after years of BB training but I've put a good 40-60KG on all three of my lifts in just over 6 months, hence now wanting to compete. I am lucky I guess that I work as a trainer and spend 20-30 hours a week putting things into practice with people of all abilities.

Bands are not just for the elite, just not for the idiots.

Martin

[cuntos]

I think if you can bench 1.5x BW, squat 2x BW, deadlift over 2x BW (all unequipped) then you will get the benefits of band use and that's certainly not masters/elite level strength!I think that using these "n times bodyweight" statements is very misleading and a load of old bollocks. It only works for skinny little fuckers. EG Consider Rob T. He might weigh around 160k (sorry if it was meant to be a secret Rob). Now if he could squat and dead 320k and bench 240k all raw, that'd be 880k raw which is most definitely elite!

Why do you think people like Robert Wilks came up with their formulae?!

[dr_hazbun]

I think that using these "n times bodyweight" statements is very misleading and a load of old bollocks. It only works for skinny little fuckers. EG Consider Rob T. He might weigh around 160k (sorry if it was meant to be a secret Rob). Now if he could squat and dead 320k and bench 240k all raw, that'd be 880k raw which is most definitely elite!

Why do you think people like Robert Wilks came up with their formulae?!

Sure, and I was only thinking of your average 12-14 stone bloke when I gave those figures.

But the point is that additional training aids can be useful once basic strength has been achieved.

[cuntos]

Agreed!

[MJ]

I think that using these "n times bodyweight" statements is very misleading and a load of old bollocks. It only works for skinny little fuckers. EG Consider Rob T. He might weigh around 160k (sorry if it was meant to be a secret Rob). Now if he could squat and dead 320k and bench 240k all raw, that'd be 880k raw which is most definitely elite!

Why do you think people like Robert Wilks came up with their formulae?!

:eek: who you calling a skinny bastard :D I go by the lift coefficiency, x bw thing.


Their was an article some where that i read which listed what weight level you should have to use which bands/chains. Trying to find it but can't.

[MJ]

Recommended chains for the bench press:


Under 200lbs bench - 20-30lbs chain
200-400lbs bench - 40-50lbs chain
400-500lbs bench - 80-90lbs chain
500+ bench - 80-90lbs chainRecommended chains for the squat:


Under 200lbs squat - 40-50lbs chain
200-400lbs squat - 50-60lbs chain
400-500lbs squat - 60-70lbs chain
500-600lbs squat - 80-90lbs chain
600-700+lbs squat - 90-100lbs chain
800+ squat - 120 - 140lbs chainCant find the deadlift one though, that is from the Elitefts.com website.

And cant find the band one. Ye i no this isnt a chain thread but its based around the same numbers for bands.

[altug]

their formulae

This was the last thing i expected to see in a PL forum. ;)

[cuntos]

I know what you're thinking altug: maybe if Cuntos spent as much time training as he did worrying about abuse of the English language he wouldn't be such a shit lifter - lol! :D

[curt]

Matt-chains are different than bands though.

[Hellspawn]

Its best to find your own weights with chains by just sticking more chain on till it feels right , most chain sets come in 2mtr lengths which i found to be not very good either i make my sets 2.5mtr and double the lengths in half this normaly works well for both bench & squat leaving enough still on the floor for stabilty , you dont realy need to worry about how much weight is actualy being used as long as it feels right.

[Martin Flett]

Personally I find bands far better than chains on the bench. More portable, more adjustment options, and I find they replicate shirted lifting really well. And they have helped my raw lockout.

[Hellspawn]

Personally I find bands far better than chains on the bench. More portable, more adjustment options, and I find they replicate shirted lifting really well. And they have helped my raw lockout.

Good job you said shirted not shirt Martin :) Lol you would never hear the last of it

[James Copping]

Personally I find bands far better than chains on the bench. More portable, more adjustment options, and I find they replicate shirted lifting really well. And they have helped my raw lockout.

Do you use them in the standard way (hooked on the floor and pressing against them) or reversed (assisting as you press up)?

[Carl]

I think that using these "n times bodyweight" statements is very misleading and a load of old bollocks. It only works for skinny little fuckers. EG Consider Rob T. He might weigh around 160k (sorry if it was meant to be a secret Rob). Now if he could squat and dead 320k and bench 240k all raw, that'd be 880k raw which is most definitely elite!

Why do you think people like Robert Wilks came up with their formulae?!

i agree but i fear i may be biased

what do you think is good for a...... 'manly' man?? in terms of bodyweight to lift ratio?

[Martin Flett]

Good job you said shirted not shirt Martin :) Lol you would never hear the last of it

Oh I'm well aware of that! And you wouldn't believe what I'm not hearing the last of over on Sugden!;)

[Martin Flett]

Hi James,

This is how I use my bands.

http://martinsgoldenblog.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=22 Scroll down to the entry for 11th December.

I don't have access to a power rack so have never tried reverse ones. Would like to at some point.

[SCG]

i agree but i fear i may be biased

what do you think is good for a...... 'manly' man?? in terms of bodyweight to lift ratio?

As a man if I couldn't manage at least 3 times bwt on squat and deadlift and twice bwt on bench with kit I wouldn't call myself a powerlifter. Bwt is no excuse for not lifting enough!

[gerthebear]

As a man if I couldn't manage at least 3 times bwt on squat and deadlift and twice bwt on bench with kit I wouldn't call myself a powerlifter. Bwt is no excuse for not lifting enough!


what about the super heavy's that pull 800lbs?? because they arent hitting 3 bwt does that mean they arent THAT good?? i think that's a bit too much of a general statement.

im hitting 3.2bwt in the deadlift and homing in 3 bwt on the squat. but im only 75kgs. the best 75's are hitting over 300kgs which is 4times bwt...but andy does 550 squat which is 3.4 bwt...something tells me a 550 squat is more impressive than a 300kgs squat, regardless of BWT

[Carl]

As a man if I couldn't manage at least 3 times bwt on squat and deadlift and twice bwt on bench with kit I wouldn't call myself a powerlifter. Bwt is no excuse for not lifting enough!

andy boltons deadlift wasnt 3x bodyweight
neither was benni's
or garry frank's

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/records/shw-men

you can tell them they're not powerlifters

[kyle]

As a man if I couldn't manage at least 3 times bwt on squat and deadlift and twice bwt on bench with kit I wouldn't call myself a powerlifter. Bwt is no excuse for not lifting enough!

not a lot of thought went into that one eh?

[SCG]

Of course I realise that bwt multiples don’t work with the 125 or Supers, but somebody weighing 160kg plus is hardly your average man.

Personally, however, I think that a 75kg lift attempting 350kg squat is far more impressive than a 250kg man squatting 550kg. I feel the middle weight classes where the lifters are all obviously good athletes and can do all three lifts are far more impressive than a group of supers, half of whom struggle to walk properly and who can’t deadlift within 150kg of their squats. I rather like the approach that Olympic Style wrestling took where they introduced a top weight limit to stop people just getting bigger and bigger. I’m sure it would benefit many of the larger lifters to be made to lose a few pounds of bodyweight

[Carl]

Of course I realise that bwt multiples don’t work with the 125 or Supers, but somebody weighing 160kg plus is hardly your average man.


well you quoted my post and im 133kg, whilst i would love to do 400/266/400 i dont think i will any time soon

[cuntos]

Come on Steve, let's use one of the formulae (eg Wilks or even Siff), that's what they're there for! To say that if you can't total 8x bodyweight with kit means you aren't a powerlifter is very unfair, as has been demonstrated by lots of other people in this thread.

eg 877.5k @ 110 is really good for example, but apparently not good enough to be called a powerlifter!

Also, even if we ignore the 125s and the supers, are you really saying that the BWLA Brits has almost NEVER been won by someone fit to call themselves a powerlifter in the 110s and only occasionally (most recently Jamie Burke) in the 110s?! And then we only have one or two powerlifters in the 90s most years too?! Seems a bit rude!

I believe it's just a coincidence that you can pick a value like 8X bodyweight, as indeed did people like Wilks, Siff, Malone, Schwartz, etc, etc. That's why 480 @ 60k is not that great, but 1000 @ 125 is.

Being from a family of anoraky cunts, this is something me and my brother have discussed in the past, albeit VERY briefly (we're not THAT sad). He came up with a simple formula based on physics; 3 dimensions theoretically contribute to bodyweight; 2 dimensions contribute to strength - muscle x-sectional area - so as a first approximation you use the power of -2/3 as little people need a higher coeff than bigger people since their totals are smaller.

So raise somebody's total to the power of minus two thirds to give them a score. Multiply that by a constant to work out what total they ought to have lifted to achieve the same level of performance.

I won't bore you with any more details, but we found a suitable constant and the results were pretty close to the IPF world records (with a few notable exceptions). In any case, we came up with this in only a few minutes. Spend a bit longer and you might come up with something like the Wilks formula or, if you base it on world records, the Siff formula.

Yes the simple "total ^ (-2/3)" isn't perfect, but it's far better than "n times bodyweight"!

[Mike Adams]

Lol .. i thought I'd accidentally logged into an Open University course. I'm in complete agreement with you calculations Tom .. now get back to work!!! ;0)


Come on Steve, let's use one of the formulae (eg Wilks or even Siff), that's what they're there for! To say that if you can't total 8x bodyweight with kit means you aren't a powerlifter is very unfair, as has been demonstrated by lots of other people in this thread.

eg 877.5k @ 110 is really good for example, but apparently not good enough to be called a powerlifter!

Also, even if we ignore the 125s and the supers, are you really saying that the BWLA Brits has almost NEVER been won by someone fit to call themselves a powerlifter in the 110s and only occasionally (most recently Jamie Burke) in the 110s?! And then we only have one or two powerlifters in the 90s most years too?! Seems a bit rude!

I believe it's just a coincidence that you can pick a value like 8X bodyweight, as indeed did people like Wilks, Siff, Malone, Schwartz, etc, etc. That's why 480 @ 60k is not that great, but 1000 @ 125 is.

Being from a family of anoraky cunts, this is something me and my brother have discussed in the past, albeit VERY briefly (we're not THAT sad). He came up with a simple formula based on physics; 3 dimensions theoretically contribute to bodyweight; 2 dimensions contribute to strength - muscle x-sectional area - so as a first approximation you use the power of -2/3 as little people need a higher coeff than bigger people since their totals are smaller.

So raise somebody's total to the power of minus two thirds to give them a score. Multiply that by a constant to work out what total they ought to have lifted to achieve the same level of performance.

I won't bore you with any more details, but we found a suitable constant and the results were pretty close to the IPF world records (with a few notable exceptions). In any case, we came up with this in only a few minutes. Spend a bit longer and you might come up with something like the Wilks formula or, if you base it on world records, the Siff formula.

Yes the simple "total ^ (-2/3)" isn't perfect, but it's far better than "n times bodyweight"!

[Martin Flett]

Eerm, what happened to the bands?:)

[SCG]

Come on Steve, let's use one of the formulae (eg Wilks or even Siff), that's what they're there for! To say that if you can't total 8x bodyweight with kit means you aren't a powerlifter is very unfair, as has been demonstrated by lots of other people in this thread.

Sorry Tom didn't mean it to be taken quite so seriously, although for an average sized person I would still maintain they're good targets. (Re 110kg the standards of the 110kg have fallen recently even with modern kit - at the end of the 90s the first two lifters totalled well over 900kg without the benefit of modern bench shirts and seven of British between 1981 and 1990 had a winning total of over 8x bwt at 110kg)

I do wonder how valid Wilks still is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Wilks Formula based on the past results of only the winners at previous World Championships and is purely a statisical manupulate of figures. There is no theory behind it. It appears to unfairly favour heavy (and to some extent smaller) lifters with the lifters in the middle weight classes needing a far greater improvement to maintain their Wilks point as their bodyweight increases. It is now very out of date as it has never been updated to take into account recent results and new equipment (which seems to have favoured the heavier lifter)

Re bands - do lifters without monolifts manage to use them on squats with anything other than very light band tensions?

[cuntos]

Sorry about that, I almost got a bit carried away there ;) I definitely agree about the Wilks formula which has been out of date for a very long time in my opinion (but not as long as some of the others, and it's still better than "n times bodyweight" of course). I seem to remember quite liking the Siff formula, although I haven't looked at it for ages.

Interestingly (to me anyway), if you use the formula my brother made up and choose a suitable constant multiplier, then you can get six of the men's predicted world records to all fall within a couple of percent of the current IPF world records (with Olech @ 67.5 and Bridges @ 82.5 exceeding the value by about 5% making Bridges then Olech the best and the 110s falling short by about 3.5%, then the 125s and supers would be just under 9% short each). I reckon that makes it a reasonable formula.

And yes, I was at the BWLA Brits at the end of the nineties (usually helping Gerald) and it was exciting stuff.

As for bands, I've only tried them a couple of times for the squat (and using a monolift too) at Genesis and I don't think the other lads use them very often either. I think some people use the jump stretch platform or some other more secure means of anchoring them to the ground.

[Jabba]

You bastard Tom ! Gerald told me I was the only man to get his hand down his Squat suit...............I feel dirty now.

[Phil E]

According to the 8xbodyweight rule, Andy Bolton is pretty close to not being able to call himself a powerlifter! I'm sure he'll be very upset to hear that ;)